The God-Talk Club Defines Cult – I

Ellen brought everyone their food and then sat down herself and joined the group.  They were no longer surprised, as this had become a habit with the group, and they all knew Ellen had an arrangement with the owner.

“So why don’t you just let one of the other waitresses serve us?” asked Bob.

“Because I like to do it.  It just feels right.”

“I’m still surprised that you just work as a waitress.  You’re so smart; you could do anything you want,” said Bob.

“But what I want to do is this.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?”

“Bob’s a bit of an elitist,” put in Mac. ”According to him, if you’re smart enough to be a scientist, then you should.”

“I’m not an elitist; I just like people to live up to their potential.”  It was rare for Bob to be offended, but he looked offended now.

“But doesn’t it matter what they want to do?” asked Mandy.

“I just can’t see how someone would want to be a waitress if she had other options,” Bob replied, but he was looking at Ellen.

“I think what I want to do is the second most important thing, right after what God wants me to do,” said Ellen.

Jerry said “Amen.”  Bob favored Ellen with a disgusted look.  Mac said, “Well, I agree with the ‘want’ part, anyhow.”

“Ellen,” said Justine, “Why don’t you tell us what you like about being a waitress.”

“I like making people happy.  I like meeting people and getting a chance to chat with them.  Sometimes it’s silly, sometimes it’s annoying, but I’m learning alot while I work here.  It also gives me a chance to be a witness.”

“You mean your boss is OK with you proselytizing?” asked Bob.

“No, not at all.  I don’t want to proselytize.  But my regular customers eventually find out who I am.  Tell me, Jerry.  Haven’t your conversations with me changed your view of Mormons?”

“Well, I still think you’re wrong.”  He grinned.  “But yes, I think I do understand better how you can believe what you do.”

“See?” said Ellen.  “I’m doing some good here.  How many other jobs would have given me a chance to talk to Jerry.  And I’ve learned many things from him as well.  And from all of you.”

There was a pause.

“But that’s just a benefit.  I enjoy serving people.  That’s why I bring the food here even when I’m not on the clock.”  She paused and grinned mischievously at Bob.  “Besides, it annoys you, and I admit I enjoy annoying you.”

There was a moment while everyone was stunned.  Ellen had never needled anyone; it just seemed contrary to her personality.  They wondered what would happen.  Bob was already offended by Mac’s charge of elitism.  Would this make him really angry?

But Ellen had read him right.  Bob laughed.  “OK, you win this round,” he said.  “But I’ll be back for more.”

“But I have a question for all you good Christians,” he continued, “And it has to do with Ellen and her faith.”

“Shoot!” said Mandy.

“Ellen is LDS.  I read up on their beliefs on the internet the other day.  I found any number of Christian sites that attack their beliefs and call them a cult.  What makes a group a ‘cult’?”

[For official LDS information, see mormon.org.  For an example of an orthodox Christian apologetics ministry, see Christian Research Institute.]

“Well,” said Jerry, “I call any organization that claims to be Christian but doesn’t uphold orthodox Christian doctrines, such as the Trinity, the authority of the Bible, the incarnation, they atonement, and salvation by faith a cult.  Often they’re smaller organizations and demand extreme personal loyalty.”

“There are more than 13 million Mormons.  That’s not small as denominations go.”

“Doesn’t that offend you?” asked Bob.  “He’s just called you a cult, and he certainly doesn’t think that’s a good thing.”

“Well,” Ellen replied, “You think my beliefs are stupid, don’t you?”

“Well … ”

“Be honest!  I know you think all of us believers are a few sandwiches short of a picnic.”

“OK, I’ll be honest.  I can’t imagine how you can both be as intelligent as you all appear to be and still believe such ridiculous things.”

“So why should I be offended? I believe that through Joseph Smith and our movement God chose to restore the true gospel that had been lost by the churches of ‘orthodox’ Christianity.”

“But you don’t accept the doctrine of the Trinity, and you accept scripture that is not part of the Bible,” Jerry exclaimed.

“But where in the Bible is the Trinity defined?  We accept that there are three distinct beings, united in purpose.  I think we’re more biblical than you are.  Your doctrines come from early church councils, not the Bible.”

“But the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine.  All the elements of the doctrine are there in scripture.  All the councils did was pull the definition together into one place.”

“And I believe the councils were wrong,” said Ellen.

“And you say you believe this on the basis of the Bible, but in reality you base your belief on the Book of Mormon.”

“I believe God revealed himself through the Book of Mormon, yes.  But that doesn’t mean I don’t believe the Bible.  I believe orthodox Christianity did not preserve the Bible as they should.  And you have added much to the Bible through various writers and your confession of faith.”

“No, confessions of faith and other writers don’t supercede the Bible.  You accept the Book of Mormon as superceding the teaching of the Bible.”

“I could debate that, but I’d rather ask you whether your church requires people to accept the Westminster Confession.  Do you?”

“Well, yes, we do.”

“Why don’t you just ask them to accept what the Bible teaches? Why do you have to define it more?”

“Well, because many people have misinterpreted the Bible.”

“I agree.  We just disagree as to who has it right and who has it wrong.”

“Which always makes it interesting for an atheist such as myself,” said Bob.  “I not only have the question of whether there’s a god or not, I have a variety of different Christians, all of them claiming I should believe their particular detailed doctrines.”

“I’d suggest that the question of God’s existence might be primary, and that most of the rest of these discussions are rather trivial,” said Mandy.

“Trivial?” exclaimed Jerry.

Bob laughed.  “You see, you guys can’t even agree on what’s important.”

“I’d suggest that you get to decide what’s important,” said Mandy.  “If you look at this as a decision between various groups of people and whether they understand God correctly or not, you’ll always find things confusing.  A spiritual journey is personal in so many ways.  Who you make the journey with is just one aspect.  You don’t even have to agree on everything in order to enjoy the journey together.”

[To be continued ...]

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Christian Carnival CCCXXXII

Welcome to the June 16, 2010 of the Christian Carnival, #322. Today I’m just presenting the posts in order with a little bit of commentary. I enjoyed a number of these posts. I hope you do as well.

Starting us out with a controversial topic, we have Rodney Olsen who presents some thoughts on how important it is to communicate on controversial issues, such as abortion, and  presents Rethinking Abortion, including an interview (audio) with a Christian politician in Western Australia who is trying to reduce the number of abortions in his state.  I admit I enjoy a vigorous and yet respectful debate on such a topic, though the opportunity to have one is quite rare.

Anyone else have trouble saving?  Yes, it’s hard to stretch that paycheck!  FMF presents The Seven Pillars of Financial Success, Pillar 4: Saving for the Future, telling us that saving a portion of what you make is one of the key biblical financial pillars.  I always love posts that start from Proverbs!

John Fraiser chooses to take on C. S. Lewis and his Lord? Lunatic? Demon?? or? trilemma.  He finds some value in the argument but doesn’t think it will stand up as an all encompassing argument.  Be sure to read down into the comments for some further clarity.

Warren Nicholson Y. Fernando finds a prayer in a Beatles song, and presents his faith interpreted through the song with  In My Hour In Need: Let It Be By The Beatles posted at 24k Forever!!!!.

If you’re like me and don’t think that much of folks preaching out on street corners or in the park, then you need to read Street Preaching and “Church in the Park” posted at who am i? by Barry Wallace.

Michael Fierro presented Luke 7, the most wondrous chapter in the Bible posted at New Testament in Review, but it’s outside the date range for the carnival, so I’m linking to Cliffhanger:  What does Paul say (Acts 22-24), which does fall in the right date range.  (Alright already!  He got two links.  He’s blogging through the New Testament–can’t resist that.  Sue me!)

I find that time in the car often provides the best opportunities to have a conversation with my wife, and Ridge Burns found the same thing to be true in his post Conversation.

Andrew says he used to wonder why Christians were so anxious to share.  He explains it in Why Christians are eager to share Christ. Are you eager?  If not, this post will tell you why you should be!

The story of Esau selling his birthright is pretty well known, but what was the big issue with that action.  Russ White presents Esau’s Birthright.  He says,  “The selling of Esau’s birthright seems straightforward–but what we to make of it? Is it more than just one story among many along the road to the creation of Israel?”

Clay at Christian Colleges presents a list of Top 10 Biblical Learning Blogs.  He says, “God is everywhere. So, it should come as no surprise to find Him on the internet also. Hey, He’s probably even got his own Twitter account. The Big Man Upstairs has gone high tech, and here are the Top Ten Biblical Learning Blogs to help you ‘Follow’ Him.”  I’m pretty biased about the list since my Participatory Bible Study blog is in first position!

Brian Marchionni presents 5 Must Read Bible Scholars (for the non-academic) posted at Boston Bible Geeks, saying, “If people in your church are wanting to learn from top-notch Bible scholars without forking over the big bucks to go to seminary, these 5 scholars would be a great place to start (with reading suggestions).”  That’s what he said.  What I say is get on over there and argue about who should or shouldn’t be on the list!  That’s where the real fun is.

michelle is blown away by the greatness of God, so she tells us about Answered Prayers. I think it’s hard to go wrong with personal testimony, so I love it!

Weekend Fisher explains why she is not a Mormon in a post titled (unsurprisingly) Why I am not a Mormon: Introduction posted at Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength.  Just the question I was going to ask!  She describes it this way: “A Christian takes a look at why she is not a Mormon — both for the sake of the earnest, kind Mormons she has known and for the sake of the agnostics who use the Book of Mormon as a smoke-screen.”

Dave Taylor believes that if we don’t continue to exercise faith, it atrophies until it degenerates into just an intellectual concept, something more likely to lead to strife, friction, and pointless controversies.  He explains why in his post Going, going …gone? saying, Disciple’s Journal. I’ve always wondered why this should be controversial. Of course we don’t always like it–exercise is hard! But the Bible says it a number of times. Dave Taylor lays it out point by point.

And since I didn’t get anything worthwhile posted on my own blogs, let me present Sometimes You Have to Act First, which I wrote for the World Prayr blog. That one goes well with the one about active discipleship that came before.

That concludes this edition. Submit your blog article to the next edition of christian carnival ii using our carnival submission form. Past posts and future hosts can be found on our blog carnival index page.



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The Last Sandwich

“I’d like the sandwich you have in that bag.”

It was the odd way he said it and the foreign accent that made her stop and look to her left.  He was sitting on the sidewalk with his back to the wall.  He looked thin, and his clothes were worn, but generally clean and carefully patched.

“This is for my son,” she said.  “If it was for me I’d give it to you.”

“You can get another sandwich for your son,” he said.

“No, I can’t.  I used the last of my money to buy this one.  I have no idea where I’ll get any money to buy any more food.”

“Still, I’m asking you for the sandwich.” He didn’t sound angry.  He didn’t sound cruel, as though gloating over taking the last food from a child.  He just sounded matter-of-fact, like it was a routine request.

“How can you ask me this?”  She was angry now.  She didn’t know why she continued the conversation, but she did.  “Are you a cruel man?”

“I am a man of God,” he said.  “I’m asking you to provide for me.  God says that if you grant my request you will never again lack food for your son.”

She looked at him for a moment.  She somehow couldn’t think of him as a fraud.  She held the bag out to him.

She was a block down the street before she started to wonder how she would face her son and reached into her pocket.


How do you react to the man’s request and this woman’s response? What, if anything did she find in her pocket?

Now read 1 Kings 17:8-15. You probably already recognized the story, but go ahead and read it anyhow. Is your reaction to the Bible story different? Why or why not?

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Resuming Blogging

I have been away from personal blogging for over two months due to an extremely busy schedule working with my publishing company, Energion Publications. I’ll be posting more about what I’ve been busy with on my Threads from Henry’s Web blog.

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Christian Carnival CCCXXVIII Posted

… at Parableman.

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Christian Carnival CCCXVII

Welcome to the March 3, 2010 edition of the Christian Carnival, CCCXVII (317 for the Roman numeral challenged).  I would like to remind everyone that the Christian Carnival is weekly, and that posts must be dated within the previous week.  Where a new participant submitted an older post I have checked, and if possible I have linked to a more recent post from the same blog.  Most posts that were not included were outside the date range.

I have also added a few editorial comments.  I hope nobody minds.

Bible Study

Chris Wiles wrote about Bono and the Psalms, noting that “[t]he Psalms were written as the soundtrack to the spiritual life of Israel.

Ridge Burns presents Psalm 95.  As he read the Psalm, he says, “I felt myself being overwhelmed with the notion that I am a child of God and that the Creator of the world somehow, some way invested His life in me.”  It is truly an amazing concept, isn’t it.

Bob MacDonald presents Psalm 27 – A Reflection at Bob’s Log with an in-depth look at patterns in the Psalm along with some details of the language.  If you haven’t discovered Bob MacDonald’s work on the Psalms you’re really missing something.

bethyada at True Paradigm presents Scope and intent in biblical interpretation in which he discusses how one might understand what is said in a scripture and still be in error about where, when, or to whom it might apply.  This is a worthwhile discussion to follow and discusses a point of interpretation that I think many miss.

Tom Gilson presents The Bible and Christian Thinking posted at Thinking Christian.  Discipleship of the mind starts with the Bible, and Tom is recommending the Bible as our guide to truth.

Epistemology

Steven Demmler presents Musings on “Certainty of Faith II at You Can’t Mean That!  He starts by discussing particularism and why he finds it a helpful approach in epistemology.  He concludes by asking whether a committed Christian can honestly say that if the evidence were to lead that way he would not believe in God.  The phrase “certainty of faith” is pretty important in the discussion.  Head on over and give him your ideas!

Theology

At Entangled States I found Saying “no” to “Good Buddy Jesus” by Nick Knisely, in which he suggests we distinguish between having a God who loves us personally and having our own personal god (see comments).

Justin Allison presents Natural Disasters: Is the World Spinning out of Control, and concludes that it has been for years.  I’m sure many people and many times in history would agree!

Calum Henderson presents I’m a Saint Just Like Mary posted at Calum Henderson.  He says that after Mary MacKillop was declared worthy of being called a saint, he thought it would be good to Biblically define what a saint is.  Sounds like a good plan!  Go check out what he learned.

NCSue presents What kind of “justice” is that? posted at IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND HAVE OUR BEING.  She finds that the word justice might not mean the same thing in God’s kingdom as it does in our world.  Who do you think ought to change?

Brian Marchionni presents To Err Is Human? or Is It? posted at Boston Bible Geeks.  Is it our sin that makes us eternally distinct from God, or is it something else?

Jeremy Pierce takes a look a look at the dualist theory of personal identity, i.e. what makes us what we are fundamentally over time and across various physical changes is sameness of soul in The Dualist View of Personal Identity posted at Parableman.  Jeremy writes some extremely challenging posts, and this is one of a series of them on theories of knowledge and reality.

Rey Reynoso presents Bird’s Eye View Of Promises posted at The Bible Archive with an overview of the connection between the divine covenants, looking at covenant theology and dispensational views.  Extensively illustrated and very interesting!

Christian Living

Lacie presents An Environmentalist Christian is Not an Oxymoron posted at The EcoChic Apprentice, saying, “I just wrote a post about being both a person that’s interested in green living and being a Christian and why God’s people should consider being more interested in green living.”  She suggests that while there are environmentalists who worship there earth, there are also “green” Christians who believe they are taking good care of God’s world.

Joe Plemon presents When Does Saving Turn To Hoarding? posted at Personal Finance By The Book.  He takes a look at the difference between saving and hoarding and how this might apply in both a spiritual and  temporal matters.

Violet N. presents a devotional that includes seven practical ways you can pass on the Gospel titled Pass it on posted at Other Food: daily devo’s. Short, practical, and to the point!

Barry Wallace presents The Promise No One Claims (Discipleship, Part 3) posted at who am i?.  He says, ““…everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” (2 Tim 3:12)”  This is another good post both on interpretation and application.  Are you claiming promises that don’t apply to you or perhaps aren’t even promises? It’s a really good idea to know just what you’re claiming.  But more importantly is there a promise you should claim but don’t want to?

Lori Vaughn presents Lent and Dr. Pepper posted at Two Southern Girls.  She’s giving up something for Lent.  What about you?

Dana presents The Pearls, abuse and a false gospel posted at Roscommon Acres.  Michael and Debi Pearl give some very controversial advice about child rearing.  Warning:  Part of this story may be hard to read.

Siobhan McGirr presents Morning Mommy posted at A Christian Mommy.  Every time I read something about the Proverbs 31 woman I’m reminded of my mother turning this on me at my wedding.  “You have to deserve a Proverbs 31 woman,” she said.  In this post the topic is getting up before sunrise.

Mission

Michelle presents Mission To Haiti/Disaster Relief/Day Five posted at Thoughts and Confessions of a Girl Who Loves Jesus… Keep following Michelle’s story.

That concludes this edition. Submit your blog article to the next edition of christian carnival ii using our carnival submission form. Past posts and future hosts can be found on our blog carnival index page.



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Christian Carnival this Evening

I’ll get the Christian Carnival posted this evening. It might be late afternoon, but I have a couple of meetings that will prevent posting it earlier. Thanks for your patience!

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How Star Trek Should Have Ended

I despised the latest Star Trek movie, but if they had used this ending I might have changed my mind.


(HT: Exploring Our Matrix)

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Fiction Link: I Told You So

A short story with an interesting ending.  Yes, it’s relevant both to science fiction and Christianity (or other forms of spirituality).

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Of Carnivals Posted and Yet to Come

Christian Carnival CCCXVI has been posted at Crossroads. It’s an interesting one, as always, with lots of good posts to review. I never find time to read all the ones I intend to read.

But “the king is dead, long live the king!” or let’s be a little less morbid, the carnival is posted, and it’s time to start thinking about submissions for the next one, which will be, let’s see–Oh!  Right here at the Caravansary.  So hitch up your mental oxen (or mules, ponies, racehorses, or whatever) and crank out some wonderful posts.  Then submit them using the form on blogcarnival.com.  You may want to Check out the requirements for inclusion, which are not unduly onerous.

I’ll be watching for your submissions!

(Note: If you’re reading this post on Amazon.com, it’s coming through my RSS feed.  The carnival will be posted here at The Jevlir Caravansary.)

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